Discussion:
Thunderbird Films & Mr. Dunahoo
(too old to reply)
Vitaphone
2006-01-18 22:11:01 UTC
Permalink
In reading the >very< interesting thread about "Atoll-K" and Thunderbird Films, it caused me to wonder if anyone knows what ultimately became of Tom Dunahoo? Of his company, and his collection of negatives? (And, if he's passed on, I don't mean that literally.)

Thunderbird will always remain as happy a childhood/teenage memory as Blackhawk, with the bulk of my allowance and paper-route $$$ deposited with both in return for what became a lifelong passion and interest.

I recall, vaguely, Tom was victimized at one point by the FBI... or something to that effect. Does anyone have details?

Oh, what I wouldn't give right now for a stack of Thunderbird & Blackhawk catalogues from the 1970's!!

Jeff
David Scott Butner
2006-01-19 02:15:13 UTC
Permalink
Jeff-
I actually uncovered a small stash of my old catalogs in my folks attic
recently (including Blackhawk, Thunderbird, Niles, Castle, Moutain, Red
Fox, etc.) and was thinking about auctioning them off on eBay. I even
have a number of Super 8 sound shorts and features (including some
Blackhawk L&H) that one of these days I'll get around to selling off.

About T'Bird, it eventually became Morecraft sometime in the early to
mid '80's after Dunahoo was gone, but I have no idea how long they
lasted. (I still have a print of "Glen or Glenda" + outakes that I
bought from them. I don't know if you ever saw any of those "grey"
market prints that were on the market around that time, courtesy of a
private collector in California, but they always looked like something
coming out of the Thunderbird/Morecraft lab. I later heard that fellow
got busted and that his prints were, in fact, manufactured by
T'biird/Morecraft.

Regarding Tom Dunahoo, I've been told that he went to prison for a
pretty horrible crime (not related to film or bootlegging) and that
he's no longer living. (Since it's hearsay, I'd rather not repeat the
details on a public board, though my source was a generally reliable
individual.) Cary Roan of the old Roan Group label (now a sublabel of
Troma) once told me that he provided the source material for some of
the Thunderbird titles and that he knew Dunahoo.

Ah, the good old/bad old days.

DAVID
James Neibaur
2006-01-19 02:20:57 UTC
Permalink
Vitaphone 1/18/06 4:11 PM
Post by Vitaphone
Oh, what I wouldn't give right now for a stack of Thunderbird & Blackhawk
catalogues from the 1970's!!
Me too! I have found a few things at rummage sales, but I wish 35 years ago
I would have realized how much I would want those mementos once I reached
the throes of middle age.

JN
JohnnyCat
2006-01-19 14:07:04 UTC
Permalink
Outtakes of Glen or Glenda? Now THAT is scary!
Cubear
2006-01-19 17:27:10 UTC
Permalink
I'm right with you there guys.
If I only knew how much they would mean to me in middle age. What I
wouldn't give to have some of those Blackhawk catalogues! Blackhawk
was such a part of my childhood!! I would wait for each catalogue like
it was the Holy Grail and then circle each film that I wanted to get.
God love Blackhawk...I remember that what I wanted to do when I grew up
was to move to Iowa and work at Blackhawk, the idea of being surrounded
by all those films was paradise :-) It is really a shame that Blackhawk
never got into the Video and DVD market with their library, some of the
films that I bought from them I can't find anywhere.
I don't remember Thunderbird?? I do remember that there was a company
that released silent features on 200 Ft 8mm reels. I bought The Cat and
the Canary, The Lost World, and other features from them. I thought
they were cool because they keep the original studio logo and titles
cards on their films whereas Blackhawk usually put there own titles on
their films. I would buy these films in a store in Manhattan that
specialized in projectors and cameras (can't remember the name) but
the name Niles sounds familiar??
Jim Reid
2006-01-19 17:35:07 UTC
Permalink
I have friends that have Blackhawk, Niles, Thunderbird and Castle
catalogs and have shown them to me. While it does bring back great
memories, I find it a little too sad to really enjoy reading them.
Maybe it's the time of life I'm in, but I find it a bit frustrating
that I can't just ride my bike down to the convenience store for a
money order like when I was 15 and get some of these great films. Heck,
I don't even have a bike anymore.
Vitaphone
2006-01-19 22:53:55 UTC
Permalink
And, not to mention, the sweet torture of waiting for that brown-wrapped parcel to arrive from Davenport, Iowa! In those days before the checking of an order status via internet, and when making a cross-country telephone call was prohibitive, the wait was excruciating. Many was the time I'd sit in front of my house, waiting for a glimpse of our mailman, and then running up to him to see if he had the telltale brown package poking out of his mailsack. He often kidded me without mercy, hiding it and then delivering the mail and heading off... before saying "I forgot something!" and then revealing that he had it all along.

Happy days, those!

Jeff
Post by Jim Reid
I have friends that have Blackhawk, Niles, Thunderbird and Castle
catalogs and have shown them to me. While it does bring back great
memories, I find it a little too sad to really enjoy reading them.
Maybe it's the time of life I'm in, but I find it a bit frustrating
that I can't just ride my bike down to the convenience store for a
money order like when I was 15 and get some of these great films. Heck,
I don't even have a bike anymore.
k***@verizon.net
2006-01-20 05:13:40 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jeff, David, and everyone interested in my 2-sense,
There was yet another home movie distributor based in New York called
Entertainment Films, that had all the excitement in their periodic
catalogs that Blackhawk had, but generally of such exotic and unknown
silent wonders that had yet to be fully documented in what few books
there were on film history at that time. It was the UNcommon names
like Louise Glaum, Laura LaPlante, Mae Busch, Lupino Lane, Larry Semon,
Fred Thompson et.al. that really raised the curiosity level of this
pre-teenager to unexpected heights. I was well acquainted with Laurel
& Hardy and fiercely loved their films from the occasional TV showings,
but actually OWNING an 8mm print of "Oranges & Lemons" with Stan sans
Babe was a thrill beyond belief, and a feeling I have very rarely
experienced since that time long ago. This of course was WAY before
home video and dvd, and waiting for the next TV showing of KING KONG
seemed like an eternity.
I was SO obsessed that I demanded, and got, a job with Thunderbird
Films in late 1974. I got to know Tom Dunnahoo pretty well, he was a
very complex guy and did have a demon or two chasing him, but in
general I think his heart was in the right place. One tidbit I have to
share:
The FBI was ever eager to bust him for copyright infringement, and paid
many unannounced visits to both the lab and the warehouse. Attempts
were made to coerce employees to share any information they might have
with promise of immunity, negatives were sometimes seized and later
returned for lack of enforcement, "plants" were sent in to attempt
purchasing GONE WITH THE WIND, or JAWS, or whatever they though could
make a charge stick, everything without success. The last straw was a
relentless series of "cease and desist" orders from various studios'
legal offices, usually regarding known public domain titles like MEET
JOHN DOE. Well, good old Tom had had enough. He ordered an
extra-large type custom rubber stamp with just one word, and repeatedly
stamped it on every successive legal "request" that came his way, and
mailed them back to whatever studio that sent it. The ploy apparently
worked as the harassment did taper off to almost nothing after a while,
and I had to admire his chutzpah. Oh yeah, the word on the rubber
stamp was "bullshit".
He wound up serving a seven-year prison sentence on what I still
believe was a trumped-up charge, one that, because of its vile and
heinous implications, I will not divulge. I personally think it was
part retribution for giving the authorities the figurative finger. He
never was charged with copyright infringement, and came out of
confinement a very broken man who could walk only with the use of a
cane. I saw him once more about 1985 or 86 just before he moved back
to his native Texas, and was told he passed away about 5 years later.
All the Thunderbird negatives were controlled by Tom's ex-wife Terry,
and she placed them with Dermot Morgan, who was Tom's head technician
and my mentor, when he opened Morcraft Films for business in 1980. He
continued making the catalog titles available in super 8 and 16mm
prints, and expanded the library with many more rarities. It was a
great place to be for a few years, but after his only son was killed in
a motorcycle accident, he became very bitter and impossible to work for
so I had to move on.
After Morgan (as he preferred to be called) became ill in the late
80's, his business acumen was failing badly. Had I known then, I would
have returned to help as he was very generous to me with his knowledge
and I genuinely cared for the man. Never a particularly good judge of
character, he had allowed some real creepy and dishonest people to
infiltrate both his business and his home - I saw him as a defendant on
an episode of TV's "The People's Court" facing a charge of sex
discrimination against one of his boarders - and when he was reduced to
dependency on a mobile oxygen tank, the doors were wide open and some
of these scum-balls took everything that could be carried. I have heard
that most of the negatives, many of which I had made, wound up with a
company called Barr Films (allegedly as collateral against money Morgan
had borrowed from the owner), and their present location and state of
condition is unknown to me. There were so many unique and invaluable
titles in that collection, such as a Mack Sennett one-reel sound short
called THE BLUFFER with Andy Clyde shot in 2-strip color in 1930, and
unfortunately they just might be beyond salvage now. It's likely that
no one will ever know.
But it was a grand time while it lasted, and I feel fortunate indeed to
have been so closely involved with what I truly love

Kingsley Candler (with apologies for being somewhat off-topic)
thebobster
2006-01-20 12:32:44 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the memories Kingsley. Man- I bet you could fill a novel
with stories about Tom Dunahoo, Thunderbird, Morcraft, etc. It must
have been a fun job for a movie-obsessed guy. :)

I heard that Thunderbird used to write the names of public domain
titles (like MEET JOHN DOE) on the leaders of negatives that contained
other movies to fool the FBI if they got raided.

Back in the 1970's, I used to write a Super 8 column for a publication
called Film Collector's World. I wrote to Tom Dunahoo about borrowing
some Thunderbird titles to review in my column. The next thing I knew,
a huge box arrived with about two-dozen films in it. One of the films
was UTOPIA- it was the first time I got to see it, and I remember being
amazed at the excellent quality of it.

I remember calling Morcraft sometime in the late 1980's to buy a VHS
video I saw advertised in THE BIG REEL (it was OCCURRENCE AT OWL CREEK
BRIDGE and THE RED BALLOON- two of my favorite shorts that I used to
own on Super 8). The guy I talked to must have been Morgan. I
remember he said he was looking into film-chaining much of the
Thunderbird collection on video, but I guess it never happened.
k***@verizon.net
2006-01-20 16:43:19 UTC
Permalink
thebobster wrote
Jan 20:
I heard that Thunderbird used to write the names of public domain
titles (like MEET JOHN DOE) on the leaders of negatives that contained
other movies to fool the FBI if they got raided.

No, that's not true. However, some films were stored and referred to by
code titles, like "Keep Your Chin Up" for SON OF KONG (from a nitrate
35mm), "The Ewe and the Kid" for CASABLANCA (get it?), etc. Hope
there's a statute of limitations here. :o
Vitaphone
2006-01-21 00:18:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@verizon.net
There were so many unique and invaluable
titles in that collection, such as a Mack Sennett one-reel sound short
called THE BLUFFER with Andy Clyde shot in 2-strip color in 1930, and
unfortunately they just might be beyond salvage now.
First, thank >you< for sharing your memories and information. The other poster was right... you do indeed have the makings of an offbeat but immensely interesting book!

Your mention of THE BLUFFER caused me to cringe, as it was one of the many Thunderbird prints I owned and didn't quite realize the value of. A few years back, when DVD finally took off, I sold the bulk of my collection and was rather shocked that BLUFFER reached a bid of well over $100... and I doubt I paid more than $20 when new.

It was a miserable little film, but the early Technicolor fascinated me, and ignited my interest in Technicolor of the early sound era. For that, I'm indebted to that odd one-reeler. I can >still< close my eyes and "see" those garish bathing costumes against the not-quite-blue sky! :)

Jeff
***@aol.com
Derek Gee
2006-01-22 18:22:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@verizon.net
Hi Jeff, David, and everyone interested in my 2-sense,
There was yet another home movie distributor based in New York called
Entertainment Films, that had all the excitement in their periodic
catalogs that Blackhawk had, but generally of such exotic and unknown
silent wonders that had yet to be fully documented in what few books
there were on film history at that time. It was the UNcommon names
like Louise Glaum, Laura LaPlante, Mae Busch, Lupino Lane, Larry Semon,
Fred Thompson et.al. that really raised the curiosity level of this
pre-teenager to unexpected heights. I was well acquainted with Laurel
& Hardy and fiercely loved their films from the occasional TV showings,
but actually OWNING an 8mm print of "Oranges & Lemons" with Stan sans
Babe was a thrill beyond belief, and a feeling I have very rarely
experienced since that time long ago. This of course was WAY before
home video and dvd, and waiting for the next TV showing of KING KONG
seemed like an eternity.
I was SO obsessed that I demanded, and got, a job with Thunderbird
Films in late 1974. I got to know Tom Dunnahoo pretty well, he was a
very complex guy and did have a demon or two chasing him, but in
general I think his heart was in the right place. One tidbit I have to
The FBI was ever eager to bust him for copyright infringement, and paid
many unannounced visits to both the lab and the warehouse. Attempts
were made to coerce employees to share any information they might have
with promise of immunity, negatives were sometimes seized and later
returned for lack of enforcement, "plants" were sent in to attempt
purchasing GONE WITH THE WIND, or JAWS, or whatever they though could
make a charge stick, everything without success. The last straw was a
relentless series of "cease and desist" orders from various studios'
legal offices, usually regarding known public domain titles like MEET
JOHN DOE. Well, good old Tom had had enough. He ordered an
extra-large type custom rubber stamp with just one word, and repeatedly
stamped it on every successive legal "request" that came his way, and
mailed them back to whatever studio that sent it. The ploy apparently
worked as the harassment did taper off to almost nothing after a while,
and I had to admire his chutzpah. Oh yeah, the word on the rubber
stamp was "bullshit".
He wound up serving a seven-year prison sentence on what I still
believe was a trumped-up charge, one that, because of its vile and
heinous implications, I will not divulge. I personally think it was
part retribution for giving the authorities the figurative finger. He
never was charged with copyright infringement, and came out of
confinement a very broken man who could walk only with the use of a
cane. I saw him once more about 1985 or 86 just before he moved back
to his native Texas, and was told he passed away about 5 years later.
All the Thunderbird negatives were controlled by Tom's ex-wife Terry,
and she placed them with Dermot Morgan, who was Tom's head technician
and my mentor, when he opened Morcraft Films for business in 1980. He
continued making the catalog titles available in super 8 and 16mm
prints, and expanded the library with many more rarities. It was a
great place to be for a few years, but after his only son was killed in
a motorcycle accident, he became very bitter and impossible to work for
so I had to move on.
After Morgan (as he preferred to be called) became ill in the late
80's, his business acumen was failing badly. Had I known then, I would
have returned to help as he was very generous to me with his knowledge
and I genuinely cared for the man. Never a particularly good judge of
character, he had allowed some real creepy and dishonest people to
infiltrate both his business and his home - I saw him as a defendant on
an episode of TV's "The People's Court" facing a charge of sex
discrimination against one of his boarders - and when he was reduced to
dependency on a mobile oxygen tank, the doors were wide open and some
of these scum-balls took everything that could be carried. I have heard
that most of the negatives, many of which I had made, wound up with a
company called Barr Films (allegedly as collateral against money Morgan
had borrowed from the owner), and their present location and state of
condition is unknown to me.
A quick internet search yielded an address for Barr Films in California:

Barr Films
12801 Schabarum Avenue
P.O. Box 7878
Irwindale, CA 91706-7878

I don't know if they are still active, but maybe someone interested in the
Thunderbird stuff could inquire...

Derek
h***@netburner.net
2006-01-22 19:15:02 UTC
Permalink
I still have part of an old T-Bird catalog 1975. I remember their
ordering forms in their catalogs were printed for Lilliputians, so I
typed my own.

Tommie Hicks
James Neibaur
2006-01-20 12:59:57 UTC
Permalink
Jim Reid 1/19/06 11:35 AM
Post by Jim Reid
I find it a bit frustrating
that I can't just ride my bike down to the convenience store for a
money order like when I was 15 and get some of these great films. Heck,
I don't even have a bike anymore.
You can buy yourself a bike, you can ride it to get a money order, and you
can buy these films from collectors on ebay (sometimes for less than they
were sold back in the old days). Such films will then still arrive in the
mail -- if you want to get as nostalgic as that. I still buy films
sometimes, and frequently run them in the classroom as a Friday treat.

JN
Jim Reid
2006-01-20 13:17:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Neibaur
You can buy yourself a bike, you can ride it to get a money order, and you
can buy these films from collectors on ebay (sometimes for less than they
were sold back in the old days).
Yeah, but it's not the same as knowing there's endless companies out
there still churning this stuff out. That time is gone. (yes, I know
about David Shepard and Ray Healy)
Vitaphone
2006-01-19 22:50:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cubear
I would buy these films in a store in Manhattan that
specialized in projectors and cameras (can't remember the name) but
the name Niles sounds familiar??
If you're thinking of what I'm thinking of, the store was (and, amazingly... still is) "Willoughby Peerless," which was down the block from Gimbel's Department Store and across the Avenue from Macy's. For reasons never made clear to me, the department in Willoughby's that sold 16 & 8mm film was, I believe, a separate entity of some sort and called "Niles."

Many was the time I was dragged into NYC by my Mom for a department store shopping excursion, and the only solace was being promised and allowed to visit Willoughby's at the end of the ordeal and pick out a movie or two for my then brand new film collecting hobby.

As I recall, the film department was in the rear of the store, close to the back exit, and on the far right of the store. Blackhawk prints were stored in glass-doored cabinet, with all those pink (!) Laurel & Hardy boxes lined up neatly at the bottom. On the opposite side of the department was a large bin which held 16mm prints, and to this day I recall being curious about a print of "The Goose Woman," as the title mystified me.

I remember the salesmen as being inordinately patient, and God bless them, they even put up with my outrageous request to thread up and project films right there on the counter (the image would be projected on a sheet of paper held in front of the lens) so I could see what the print quality was like! Mind you, I was all of 11 or 12 at the time, but already impossibly particular about print quality. Today, a salesman would either ignore the request or haul off and bodily toss the kid through a plate glass window.

Their (seeming) pleasure in helping me select films, and indulgence, played a huge part in forming what would be a lifelong interest, as I always associated film collecting with nice people and I've been fortunate in having that disproved very few times indeed.

Jeff
***@aol.com

P.S.- I remember that we'd usually grab a quick bite to eat before heading down to the subway for the ride home to Brooklyn at a "Chock Full O' Nuts" across the street from Willoughby's, and that there was also a long narrow bookstore on the same block, which is where I pleaded with my perplexed Mom to buy for me Everson's "The Films of Laurel and Hardy" one day in 1967, which she did. The rest was history!
Cubear
2006-01-20 17:04:18 UTC
Permalink
Oh my god ..."Willoughby Peerless"...my Mecca...! You are exactly
right, that was the store I was remembering, Is it still there?? Your
description was 100 percent right on to the last detail and brought all
the memories back. That's the store my dad brought me to purchase my
first Dual 8 sound projector, a Eumig (is that how you spell it). And
how you were right on in your description of the about the Film Dept.
The glass case with all the L and H pink boxes lined up on the bottom
and I think the Castle Films on the top shelves facing out. And you
are absolutely right about the nice salesman. They were so willing to
talk and to put up with a little 14 year old kid who would brows the
dept for hours, window shopping and putting together lists of purchases
for the next year asking questions and looking at the boxes of film
like they were the crown jewels.
Geez..Thanks for the memories!!

Ed
Vitaphone
2006-01-21 00:18:13 UTC
Permalink
My pleasure, Ed! I actually surprised myself at how much I remembered, especially as I hadn't thought about it in years.

Yes, Willoughby-Peerless is still in business, although I believe the store is somewhat smaller than it used to be... or at least it seemed so the last time I walked by.

Coincidentally, Eumig was also my first s8s projector and it was bought at Willoughby's. Although very expensive for the time, my Dad justified the purchase since he was a camera buff himself and took loads of home movies. What a heavy, well-made strong projector it was too!! (Grey, black and white metal, as I recall.) Then too, there were a few times when minor repairs were needed and we had to make the long, long drive to Lake Success, NY to drop the projector off at what was likely Eumig's only East Coast headquarters. Twice, they repaired the unit while we waited so we wouldn't have to come back (like that would ever happen today!) and I still remember that the repairman/technician's name was "Otto," and that to test the unit they kept on hand a s8s Woody Woodpecker cartoon. :)

I eventually graduated to one of those Elmo units that took 2,400' reels... but I was always happier with that rock solid Eumig.

Jeff
Post by Cubear
Oh my god ..."Willoughby Peerless"...my Mecca...! You are exactly
right, that was the store I was remembering, Is it still there?? Your
description was 100 percent right on to the last detail and brought all
the memories back. That's the store my dad brought me to purchase my
first Dual 8 sound projector, a Eumig (is that how you spell it). And
how you were right on in your description of the about the Film Dept.
The glass case with all the L and H pink boxes lined up on the bottom
and I think the Castle Films on the top shelves facing out. And you
are absolutely right about the nice salesman. They were so willing to
talk and to put up with a little 14 year old kid who would brows the
dept for hours, window shopping and putting together lists of purchases
for the next year asking questions and looking at the boxes of film
like they were the crown jewels.
Geez..Thanks for the memories!!
Ed
James Neibaur
2006-01-21 04:02:17 UTC
Permalink
Vitaphone 1/20/06 6:18 PM
Post by Vitaphone
I eventually graduated to one of those Elmo units that took 2,400' reels...
but I was always happier with that rock solid Eumig.
2400 ft?? I still have an Elmo but it takes 1200 ft reels. Didn't realize
there was one with such a large reel capacity as 2400 feet.

JN
S***@nospamprovide.net
2006-03-04 20:24:21 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 00:18:13 GMT, "Vitaphone"
Post by Vitaphone
My pleasure, Ed! I actually surprised myself at how much I remembered, especially as I hadn't thought about it in years.
Yes, Willoughby-Peerless is still in business, although I believe the store is somewhat smaller than it used to be... or at least it seemed so the last time I walked by.
Coincidentally, Eumig was also my first s8s projector and it was bought at Willoughby's. Although very expensive for the time, my Dad justified the purchase since he was a camera buff himself and took loads of home movies. What a heavy, well-made strong projector it was too!! (Grey, black and white metal, as I recall.) Then too, there were a few times when minor repairs were needed and we had to make the long, long drive to Lake Success, NY to drop the projector off at what was likely Eumig's only East Coast headquarters. Twice, they repaired the unit while we waited so we wouldn't have to come back (like that would ever happen today!) and I still remember that the repairman/technician's name was "Otto," and that to test the unit they kept on hand a s8s Woody Woodpecker cartoon. :)
I eventually graduated to one of those Elmo units that took 2,400' reels... but I was always happier with that rock solid Eumig.
Jeff
Jeff...!!!!!

Please hit return once in a while......

Your posts are the only ones I have to scroll right and left to
read...
S.
Vitaphone
2006-03-06 15:59:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by S***@nospamprovide.net
On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 00:18:13 GMT, "Vitaphone"
Post by S***@nospamprovide.net
Jeff...!!!!!
Please hit return once in a while......
Your posts are the only ones I have to scroll right and left to
read...
S.
Never
had
any
complaints
before,
but
I'll
keep
that
in
mind. ;)

jeff

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